John

I apologize if my answer to the spinning guys question was flippant.

My first outings with friends on the Kinnickinnic were using spinning rod and reel. I did not fly fish back then. I would throw Panther Martins, Mepps, small Rapalas, and worms. We caught fish. We would cast and move, cast and move and covered a lot of water in those days without the understanding of the nuance of the sport. We were there to rip lips and eat our limit. The spring (back then opening day was the first Saturday in May)was the best for this method of fishing, or worming of course. As the season progressed into the late summer and the trout began to rise to the mayflies and other insects emerging from the stream. Spin fishing became inconsistent and much less productive as the heat of summer pushed in. Worms still worked but even they had lost some of their catching luster. The trout seemed happy enough and surely active with all this surface feeding. It was then, after being skunked on my favorite stretch of water, I was lucky enough to watch an amazing demonstration. A man in his 70’s who was fishing behind me caught trout one right after the other in the water that I had just fished through. As I watched from the cover of some tall grass, I could see him laughing to himself as he released each fish he had caught. He was throwing the dry fly.  The right presentation for his time on the water to be successful at catching in that spot. He was kind enough to show me what he was doing. The next day I bought a fly rod. Hardware store. $15.00.

I went back the next day armed with my new rod and a box full of expectations to once again capture the crown of “The King of Catching”. I got skunked! The bugs were there. The trout were rising. I sucked at fly fishing. I just had not learned yet what I needed to learn in order to be successful at catching. I went back to spin fishing and carried the fly rod as my back up. It took time but I learned how to use the fly rod more effectively. Others were kind enough to help because it was obvious I sucked.

I realize I am not making a direct comparison from spinners to streamers and attempting to measure their effectiveness at catching trout. The direct answer would be NO, you should not expect the same results. Streamers thrown on a fly rod are not the same as spinners or rapalas thrown on a spinning rig. I have no good data to give you an answer.  What stuck out more to me in your questions was the word expectation.  If there is one thing that has helped me to be a better fly angler it is to not have expectations.  Too many times, I went to the stream with expectations and was disappointed. Expectations caused me to be regimented, to be too narrow minded, to be too predictable. Having no expectations has allowed me to be much more observant, to be a better adaptor. Nature changes every day, every hour, every second. Notice the changes, adjust, hammer more trout.

I am going fishing. Last week I was hit by numerous Ice chunks and shelfs that were floating sneakily in the current. I caught no fish. Today nature is changing. She is warming up. I am hoping the trout will warm-up to my offerings.

Andy

What’s the best way to fish a run that empties into a deeper pool?

I watch utube videos were spin fisherman just hammer the trout in these holes. As a fly fisherman should I expect 

the same results using streamers?

Thanks,

John

John

As always, different anglers will approach situations differently. It is the beauty of stalking trout with a fly. In fact I would wager that there is no best way to approach fishing runs leading into large pools only different ways on different days under different conditions. I think you get my drift.  For my money run-pool stream configurations generally hold large populations of trout of all sizes. With a few suckers thrown in you have some of the most productive water on any given stream. However, these areas also tend to be the prime fishing locations and get the most pressure from anglers. Consequently, the fish that live in these complexes will usually be a bit flakey and have the ability sense your presence if you are reckless in angling attempts or will “turn off” after one or two fish are hooked and played carelessly. Remember, they have seen you, or someone who looks like you many times before. I believe they know the drill and will cease actively feeding if they sense danger.

Now, variables, consider the many variables. Are the fish hungry? Have the fish fed all night and are fat and tired. Do they need to digest/poop? Are the water temps reasonable for their activity? Is it sunny, overcast? Is there competition over food?  How proficient was the angler who fished before you? The list goes on and on and I just wanted to make you aware that the answer to your first question may be more complicated than you think.

When I find a location as you have described, I may approach it differently each outing until I am intimately familiar with its character. I try to read every current and know the location of every rock. If nymphing, I need to know approximate depths locate inside and outside edges. I will find the current seams and back eddies. I will know exactly where the transition zone from deep to shallow is and where the head and tail of the complex are.  For throwing dries, I want to know where I have to stand to outsmart the currents and allow my fly to drift drag free.  I look for my casting lanes and how long a cast I will actually need to make.

Observation will allow you to pick the best method/technique to be most successful at catching. Approaching from top to bottom or bottom to top will be gauged after the angler observes what he/she can. These observations will make the most sense after you have repeatedly fished these complexes and learned their nuances. Watching other anglers can also be very helpful.

Finally, complexes like you have described will have many, many locations where fish can feed or rest or play or whatever. The most direct answer I can give you is I tend fish these places one by one. Foot buy foot, literally. All of the locations  have the ability to provide you, the angler, with the chance to catch a fish.  Wide ranging, long casting scattergun approach may provide some success but a focused look will lead to more fish and a better understanding of their habits and the world they live in.

As for your second question I rarely watch the utube when it comes to fishing. Sometimes I watch or  maybe .

Streamer fishing can be the most active, aggressive and fun method of fly fishing. Somedays the spin guys will easily out-fish the fly guys, sometimes it will be the other way around. Sometimes the worm guys get the trophy. I cannot tell you which days those will be. I may suggest if you are throwing the fly, to leave your expectations at the truck and just enjoy your time in the woods and on the water.

Thanks for the question John.

Finally, Tuesday was the day for my first Wisconsin trout of 2017.

Roads were in poor shape on Tuesday morning but the sky was clear the weather was a pleasant break from the ice rain the night before. By 10 PM Monday night when I made the final slide south out of River Falls, roads were nothing short of Zamboni perfect. Driftless terrain and glare ice is about as scary as it gets for road conditions around here. One miscalculation on breaking pressure and you can count on something bad happening. By 11:30 I purposefully wedged my truck into a snow bank and walked the rest the way home. I had had enough. I digress.

From 11 am to 2 pm fishing was consistent. There were fish on the surface but tight brushy conditions made nymphing a better choice. Midges and little black stones were everywhere.  The bugs were on the banks, in the air, on the water, up your nose. This was probably the most prolific winter hatch I had seen in a while. Along with the midges and stones, a billion little unidentified bugs were also there in force. Someone said they were called springtails which would fit since they did jump around when you invaded their space. Below is a bad picture of my #20 flashback Kinni nymph sitting next to a pile of these little springers. Individuals  were not much bigger than the point of a pin, not the head, the point.

SULFUR??????

Frost on their noses, snow clods on their backs and ice on their eyelashes this morning told me that I was probably not going fishing today. My Miniature horses(about 500lbs each), were snorting and bucking when I went to feed them this AM.  Their fur, thick as a wooly mammoths,  is apparently keeping them nice and toasty this winter as they showed no signs of being cold.

…..Me on the other hand was just fine heading back into the house and throwing another log into the wood burning stove.  The burn of the morning air and the sting of cold water splashed onto my exposed skin left me with no desire to slip out and wet a line in my local waters.  6 days since the opener and not one cast to a trout! I must be getting soft.   Next week there might be a warm up.

Lets talk dry flies, hatches, summer stuff. I feel warm already. This week, a friend of mine who makes his way up here once a year along with a gang of other fine and dignified gentlemen asked this question;

Hello! I hope that all is well and you’re prospering in this cold winter (at least, compared to some recent years). I write with a question about sulphur hatches on the Rush. Those of us who gather for “Sulphurpalooza” will soon decide on dates for the 2017 gathering. Each member of the group seems to have a differing opinion about when sulphurs are likely, but my opinion is “we don’t know squat”. Hence, my missive to you…

If you were to peg dates on when sulphurs are at or near their peak in a completely average year, what would those dates be? I fully realize that spring weather and temperatures have a huge impact on dates of emergence. But, we might as well choose dates somewhere near the peak of the “bell-shaped curve”. You are about the only person whose opinion I would have confidence in!

Many thanks for your advice. When the blessed event actually happens, I hope to see you yet again around the dining table and campfire.

Cheers,
Rex

Greetings Rex
Great to hear from you. I have completed my 3 days of servitude for the week and now have time to answer you more completely

You have chosen your words carefully to let me know, you know, there are myriad of intertwining variables that must be sorted out in order to answer your question. Your request has been made in a manner to assure me that your “sulphurpalooza brothers” may be a few bricks short of a full data set and your wish is to acquire a more scientific answer to your question. I completely understand.

Here is that answer OR Skip this part and go to directly to the bottom of the page to acquire the “peak sulphur emergence dates in a completely average year”.

According to and in general Malcolm Knopp and Robert Cormier 1997 in Mayflies-An Angler’s Study of Trout Water Ephemeroptera, W. Patrick McCafferty 1981 in Aquatic Entomology–The Fishermen’s and Ecologists’ Illustrated Guide to Insects and Their Relatives and Gaylord Schanilek 2005 thriller, MAYFLIES of the Driftless Region, the term “sulphur” has been applied to or associated with numerous species of mayflies. Some have been scientifically classified….. Some have been classified, argued about, then reclassified. In the end there are very few laymen who can positively identify these mayflies. Further more, I am not certain entomologists are 100% in agreement on some classifications.

The use of the word sulphur(a common name) has created a goat rodeo in angling lingo and few in the angling world have been able to sort it out. From my experience, this loose fitting term has been used to describe the species; infrequens, inermis, excrucians, needhami, dorothea, invaria and rotunda just to name a few. Some are located in this region, some are not. Some species referred to as sulfurs in this region are probably happy , healthy and scheduled to emerge at their designated time. Some were once here and are now ghosts. Some insect populations only remain in remnant numbers and no longer cause trout to stalk the surface water. For my entire angling history, the word sulphur has been used to describe a number of different mayflies. I have just about given up on discussing it with others because half way through the conversation I realize they are talking about a different insect. SO I LUMP.  In all these years I am not absolutely certain I have made definitive identification of any one bug I call sulphur. I  have found great variability in some of the hatches I have experienced on our local waters. Many of these hatches are compound/complex hatches containing 2 or 3 different species of mayflies. Oh, and lets not forget the yellow craneflies that also have been referred to as sulfurs by so many anglers. SO I LUMP.  To make it simpler. I lump the group  into the light colored flies of summer.

Through my eyes In the last 6-8 years there has been change to the light colored flies of summer or sulfurs, Sulphurs, sulfers, if you will. In the areas where I have fished them for the last 20 years the rivers, insects and populations have changed. Nature is showing off her ability to be dynamic. For years I would watch the development of the Dames Rockets in the valleys and wait for the emergence of the sulfur mayflies. I had no idea these plants were invasive until I popped open this link. These plants were my reminders, my indicators, that dry fly fun was about to begin. In the places where I fish the sulfur imitations, populations have dwindled. The beautiful plants and pleasant fragrance remain in my fondest memories of fishing and place. Although the plants remain, blooming during the same period, the mass flight of mayflies no longer occurs above some of these waters. No longer does the water boil with greedy trout.

Make no mistake, the fish are still there. The habitat looks the same. It is only the massive hatches of insects that for the most part are missing. This fact reminds me that once again change is. I know to expect it. I chill, and move on to find the next honey hole or honey hatch.

We as anglers have expectations. These expectations are rooted in our past experiences. We want definitives and the ability to form patterns and repeat….. With Angling, repeating makes it easier to achieve the same results and create better fish stories.
According to my notes, logs and blogs from the past, the peak emergence times for the sulfurs in a broad sense would be from May 20 through June 20th. In a narrow sense somewhere between the first and second week of June.
A prediction for an emergence of Sulphurs on the Rush or any local river is no longer possible for me to give you. My attempt to hit this hatch or hatches in the last few years has been unpredictable at best after 20 years of reasonable predictability. My sense is that these mayfly populations may be on the low side and may never cycle back,,,, who knows???? Something else may take their place??

REX

Sorry for not being much help. Food, Fire and Fishing is always good when you are around quality people. Let me know when you set the date.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE SULFURS??

When fishing with barbless hooks what is best way to keep fish on? I get hits but have a hard time keeping them on.

Thanks Gary

Gary

While there is skill involved in playing fish on barbed or barbless hooks that is learned over time, I believe a higher percentage will escape or be involuntarily released with barbless hooks in the mix. Tell me are these hits coming when you are swinging the fly down stream or when you are dead drifting the fly and are reacting to an indicator movement??
A

Some of the misses are drifting under a floating indicator. Other times the fish is hooked and comes off. Thank you for your reply.

Gary

OK Thanks
Generally here is how I see it barbed or barbless.
Trout missed or briefly hooked while indicator fishing(dead drift) may be a reaction issue. Our reaction is too slow or in the wrong direction and we miss or just slightly bury the hook. The angler may feel a tug but it is fleeting

Trout missed on swinging, moving or tight line presentation can be due to them missing. They are chasing a moving fly and sometimes they miss. Many times they will bump the fly, get a piece of the fly or leader and/or the fly will strife against their body causing the angler to believe they have a valid mouth hooked trout. Especially on a two fly rig. 

Pressure(a bent rod) is key, once the fish is hooked. Pressure can be varied and/or directionally changed to steer the fish but it should not be let off. Slack line or lack of pressure at any time during the fight will most likely lead to unintended release.

Finally, a hundred variables or more can be at play at any time when we are fishing. Sometimes we just don’t have enough information(data) to answer our questions definitively. As anglers we tend to beat ourselves up over this dilemma. Immediacy is what we want, patience is what we need. The problem solving aspect of fishing can be the most gratifying or paralyzing. Don’t let it be the latter. Shake it off, throw the next cast. Make an adjustment. Learn:)

 A

Thoughts on these subjects are always welcome.

Greetings and Seasons Greetings!

Thought it might be time to get that picture of muddy water off the blog and give those of you who are left checking in at “The Goat” something more up to date to look at.

A few of us were chatting  the other day about the opening of the Inland Trout Season in Wisconsin and how the first of the year was right around the corner. Just a reminder; Opening Day For Trout In Wisconsin Is Saturday January 7, not on the first!  The January 1 trout opener belongs to our neighbors in Minnesota, and opens up more of their water to catch and release fishing than is already open already. Many of the streams in Minnesotas State Parks in the Southeast have been open on a continuous basis already. In any case check your regs. if unsure.

2016-A Blurrrrrr

I have no idea where the last year went. One blink of an eye and I am older, fatter, slower than the past year. I feel I have accomplished less than in previous years but vow to surge ahead and see what 2017 will bring.

The Gray Goat Guide Service is alive and well and will continue “living the dream on the stream ”  Wednesday, Thursday, Friday during the 2017 season. To all this years clients, A Grand Thanks!!!! The chance to spend time on the water with you and share my unorthodox knowledge of trout fishing has made me whole, I appreciate it. To those of you who have bought 2017 gift certificates for friends or family, Get Ready. I have no clue what 2017 will bring but you can be sure I will make something up. My Balls Are Still For Sale. Don’t get caught up in “trapped air technology”, some yarny things from a little foreign country(I really love you New Zealand)or these new screw top loose the O-ring do dads for your indicator needs. Bentley’s Balls Strike Indicators are the most simple and effective strike indicator on the market, not to mention the least expensive. Just pull the quick sight rubber through the hole and your off and floating. No muss, no fuss.  As for the Blog, it needs time and inspiration to keep it regular. Unfortunately I have been short of both of those in 2016 with the rigors of my newer, more urgent job. The acquisition of a new iMac and a planned update to the website however are making the light at the end of the tunnel a little brighter on that front.

Here is a 2016 photo recap and a few words. Hope you and your family have a great holiday season, and Thanks.

Solo Jan 2017

Fly fishing guide Andy Roth hoists a brown trout he caught on the lower Kinnickinnic River in Pierce County, Wis., Friday, March 4, 2016. (Pioneer Press: Dave Orrick)

F3t meets R4F

Fishing Friends March Opener

Happy Jim, April

Happy Goat , Wisconsin Driftless Trip

2016 F3t Guide Trip Winners

First Trout

Fast Learner

Seasoned Angler

A beauty

A King

The Final Day

A great sponsor

F Bridge on the Kinni

Andy,

With heavy rains in NE Iowa, I was thinking of heading to Wisconsin, and trying the Kinni. I noticed you posted, at 400cfs, it was unfishable. I’ve never fished the Kinni, so I was wondering what water levels and flows are fishable. Also, should I plan on fishing nymphs and streamers, mainly, or will there be any hatches?

Thanks,

Vance

Vance
Thanks for the contact.
Wednesday I guided the lower Kinni and my clients had active fish all day. The water was a bit stained from 3/4″ of rain the day before. Today I was going to fish the Kinni. I went golfing instead.  Rain the last two days kicked her off color but no to badly. By this morning, although the flows were coming down, it was still dirty at 150CFS. Flows over 200 will likely be unfishable, that is about the flow rate when the above photo was taken. The water looked a little better this morning.  Flows below 130 should be perfect. Realize there can be a lag time in dirtying up, as rain coming in from the top of the watershed may not show up at the bottom until 12 to 20 hours later because of the mitigating effect of the two dams in the middle. If the rain comes in below the dams it may dirty quickly while the upstream water will be fine. It is all a matter of where the rain hits.

Have not seen much for hatches as of late. Nymphs would be my first choice and black or white cone head buggers my second. The information above would pertain to the lower river(below the dams in River Falls). I have not fished the upper river since early summer.

The Rush River today looked about the same as the Kinni. Give it a day or so.

A

Looks like the rain has gone and washed away at least part of the weekend fishing. Levels on both the Kinni and the Rush spiked last night and are coming down. Last weeks water disturbance subsided quickly and returned to normal flows in a day or two. Maybe the rivers will clear to a fishable state quickly this week as well.

More later.

The same rain that is helping keep everything green outside through this hot August has made your trout streams in Pierce County Wisconsin brown and unruly. My guide trip for today has unfortunately been cancelled and some home improvement projects have jumped to the top of the list. 3.5″ in River Falls and almost 6″ of rain in the Baldwin area have blown up todays, and most likely some of the weekend fishing. Rain is still hanging tough in the area but it looks like the worst is over. The weekend conditions will be iffy and kinda, sorta,  unpredictable right now. The Kinni is only now beginning to recede  from its 400 some CFS and the Rush is full to the banks at the upper end. This one has been slow to build to peak flows with all the tributaries, run-off gullies, ditches and farm fields taking a while to relieve themselves into the main stem. Lets hope water conditions are quicker to improve to maybe salvage a Late Saturday/Sunday fish.

Steelhead Dreams are beginning their sleep-time dance.

This week has been a bit tough on anglers. It is “that” time of year and the dog days of summer are biting a bit better than the trout.

Here is a short report for those of you who prefer not to read the ramble. It is like getting the weather first, rather than having to read how our Outstanding Presidential Candidates have promised us the moon, stars and free tickets to our own personal prosperity. I believe every word they say, don’t you????  Water clarity is very good. Air temps have caused water temps to rise quickly during this heat wave(no surprise there). This is NOT desirable. Stream-side trailing to your old favorite spots has become difficult. Finding passage through the nettle and parsnip jungles has been less than pleasurable. Target deep pools, shaded areas, locations down stream and in close proximity of spring inlets and large rock pockets. These areas are where we are finding active fish, mainly smallish, but active. Yes nymphs. I believe most reports on the web have been similar in regard to “The Tricos”. Everyone has been looking for them but not really finding much for quantity or quality. There have been a few tricos in the spider webs but nothing to write home about. Darth Vader has been spotted in the afternoons but again the pickens have been slim and the majority of the fish on top have been small and thats OK. What have you been seeing?

Ramble

Shortly after the big rains of a couple of weeks ago, both the Kinni and the Rush were pushed into a slightly rearranged condition. The winds and the water, uprooted, snapped and twisted cottonwoods, willows and oaks. Lumber in the water took out a bridge south of Vino in the Valley and continued to chew up the cement on many of the slab bridges crossing the river. Pierce County workers once again had their hands full piling lumber and repairing asphalt around the bridge decks. The Rush was hit harder than the Kinni although the Kinni did hit almost 1,000 CFS.

The catching in the early stages of the aftermath seemed to be rather good. A few larger fish were hooked or caught.  I am always amazed at the power and destruction of these flash floods. I make it a goal to get out on the water quickly after these events.  As the waters are receding(clearing on the edges)and appear to be pretty stained up, the catching can be quite good. I believe trout can see much better in stained water than we give them credit for. Clients who are booked for these days are usually rewarded with some nice catching. Those who are booked the day before usually get the “streams are blown” speech and we try and reschedule. Plain and simple it is just the luck of the draw.

Here are a few thoughts for this time of year

Wet wade, it is a bit cooler on the body. Stay out of nettle fields with light weight pants, it is a un-pleasurable burn. Learn to identify wild parsnip, it is an un-pleasurabe burn.

Fish early and late in this heat. Be kind to yourself and the trout.

Drink water, not beer, before during and after.

Talk with your children about contraception.